tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post1529142427200591951..comments2024-02-03T17:53:56.911+00:00Comments on ...the leadpile: Why Don't Spesh Mureens have Platoons?Whiskey Priesthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15956327711660800903noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-59872510863876120352018-11-23T15:14:23.618+00:002018-11-23T15:14:23.618+00:00I don't know much about the current fluff, but...I don't know much about the current fluff, but the Astartes are supposed to a flexible fighting organization. There's no reason the wouldn't be able to switch their organization from conventional to unconventional depending on whatever the mission dictates.<br /><br />The Lieutenants could be there to lead smaller detachments or to take command of special forces style teams whereas Sergeants are probably most effective in conventional combat.Bulldoglopezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07737797794862661076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-38918083005512974732018-11-22T09:51:28.390+00:002018-11-22T09:51:28.390+00:00Priestly, Nigel Stillman, Jervis, the Perry twins,...Priestly, Nigel Stillman, Jervis, the Perry twins, etc. from old GW were pretty avid historical gamers. They probably know more about military organization through time than anyone that has served in the military. I know most of the people I served with barely knew how to wear their boots. You can see that knowledge in much of the current Warlord output and certainly back in the Warhammer Historical books that popped up around 5th editon of WFB.<br /><br />The other half is that the Marines were based on Legions and chopped smaller after the Hersey to prevent a single leader from having as much power and influence ever again. They even lost most of their starships. They did keep the decimal division of units intact though, so the 10 companies, 10 squads. John Middletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995017823921643745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-32080791200011667292018-11-20T14:57:08.487+00:002018-11-20T14:57:08.487+00:00ppfffttt...Who cares...Oldhammer bro...:)ppfffttt...Who cares...Oldhammer bro...:)Blue in VThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16420605978612894112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-75530009609210294592018-11-17T19:41:34.924+00:002018-11-17T19:41:34.924+00:00Ouch! Now you're spoiling it! That . . . actua...Ouch! Now you're spoiling it! That . . . actually makes sense. Even with the LoTR in Space thing going on that still fits. I seem to recall there are certain other elements that are jokes at the Yank expense as well. Orks with Chicago accents, for instance.The Composerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14009448596738385017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-17151152899090404052018-11-17T12:25:51.522+00:002018-11-17T12:25:51.522+00:00Space Marines were based more on the Salvation Arm...Space Marines were based more on the Salvation Army than an actual military. Lieutenant is just an officer rank rather than having specific organisational element to oversee. The whole thing is just a joke about theocratic warrior monks in spaaaaace, not sure anyone is supposed to take it seriously. zhu bajieehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08004498036257289234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-61261191124991280112018-11-17T04:11:24.476+00:002018-11-17T04:11:24.476+00:00The whole college kids with no military experience...The whole college kids with no military experience but a whole heap of eager makes a great deal of sense. I suppose when I was that age my understanding of how a military worked was drawn mostly from Lord of the Rings and pulp histories of WWII. And maybe one or two swords and sandals epics and a little bit of Aurthurian myth. To this day I have a hard time remembering how things work much above the battalion level without looking them up. (I still don't have any military experience. I just started reading a better grade of book than 70s gaming supplements. Eventually. Which would maybe qualify me to be a butterbar. If the military ever stooped to taking fat old butterbars.)<br /><br />And if you don't distinguish between enlisted and commissioned then things are liable to be a little different anyway and if the starry eyed adepts are more space monk/knigths than regular military anyway then they're really more or less all commissioned. Spatial Fierces. (Mind you, I love my marines and briefly organized them as Imperial Marine Raider Battalions in an effort to push them back a little towards the real military. And that grandfather sergeant with the slightly chipped sword and the ragged blue patch with the skull on it. That . . . might be sitting in my living room for the first time ever as I try to figure out what to do with them.)<br /><br />But maybe Lopez's answer is best. Combine that with teenagers and their hero-worship of Old Men With Stories and you might just about be there.The Composerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14009448596738385017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-91661145639608577852018-11-17T01:06:12.364+00:002018-11-17T01:06:12.364+00:00I seem to remember one of the Heresy black books s...I seem to remember one of the Heresy black books saying the Heresy-era Lieutenants were each in charge of one half of the company, which still seems like a awkward arrangement, but makes soooooome sense. Since Cawl and Big Baby G were around at that time, it follows that they might organize the Primaris somewhere between how the Legions were set up and the Codex. <br /><br />I guess I am digging through books this weekend to find that reference.Fiend Without A Facehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05257216652029946717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-6990554859938152032018-11-16T18:18:56.561+00:002018-11-16T18:18:56.561+00:00I suspect it's a mix of reasons. Joe is probab...I suspect it's a mix of reasons. Joe is probably on to something with the fact that Priestly had no military experience (and I'm not sure any of the 40K devs ever have). <br /><br />It could also be to represent the fact that SM have better discipline, training, mental ability, and communications, and are more commonly operating independently in fairly small numbers, so they can get away with a flatter organization. <br /><br />I've seen some studies, more about business management and such, but still relevant to some extent, that found that 10 subordinates is more or less the limit for regular human managers/leaders. With the various enhancements SM have, perhaps 10 is a pretty reasonable number for them, rather than pushing the limit.<br /><br />IIRC, when SM Lieutenants were first around, back in RT, they didn't divide the Company up on a more or less permanent basis, but were assigned to lead particular operations when the Company needed to split up, on an entirely ad hoc basis.<br /><br />I'd also note that the same issue arises at the next level of command, with only a single Chapter Master overseeing 10 Companies. Again that same ratio, right at the edge of what regular humans can handle under situations rather less confusing and stressful than combat.<br /><br />Similarly, the Guard organizational structure starts really falling apart above the level of the Company. Even below that, they're kind of pushing it, with typically five elements of each lower level making up one of the next (compared to 3-4 for most modern militaries, as I understand it), but then they jump from Company straight to Regiment, with sometimes dozens of Companies all overseen by a single Colonel. No Battallion-level structure with Majors or Lt. Colonels to help keep all that sorted out. And apparently all organization above the level of Regiment is done on an ad hoc basis, with no set structure whatsoever, just whatever any given General/Marshall/Lord Solar/High Commander/whatever decides to do.WestRiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10221228665636182019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-75255101036434938282018-11-16T16:39:40.346+00:002018-11-16T16:39:40.346+00:00The org charts for 40K bug the shit out of me. As ...The org charts for 40K bug the shit out of me. As to LT's, this is what I always think of https://youtu.be/1r7YHR1YsccSeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15428727065347379281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-72762026458355876042018-11-16T14:39:41.533+00:002018-11-16T14:39:41.533+00:00I always thought in 40k that SM's just skipped...I always thought in 40k that SM's just skipped platoons as part of a "bath-tub" to suggest that the battles were larger. <br /><br />Of course that's contradicted by the fact that they didn't do the same with IG. Because the equivalent would be Captains/Company commanded by a Colonel/Battalion, but instead they went the "the Colonel is just an upgraded Captain" route. Maj. Guiscardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190079604693321739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-75658294566991012362018-11-16T11:18:46.047+00:002018-11-16T11:18:46.047+00:00The new background does seem to follow a more reas...The new background does seem to follow a more reasonable approach – each Company of a hundred marines is led by an overall Captain supported by two lieutenants – i.e. roughly thirty marines per officer. Given the quality of Astartes troops in general, I think the proportions work fairly well now; particularly when you consider the number of sergeants (each of which is perfectly capable of leading a larger group than his own ten men).<br /><br />In defence of the older background – one Captain in direct command of a hundred marines – it's probably fairer to compare that with the Roman Legion – i.e. one Centurion to eighty men. The historical angle is less pronoucned these days, but 40k was originally very much Dark Ages in space, rather than Modern warfare.apologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14655902797372187934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-15320980228943124192018-11-16T10:00:34.085+00:002018-11-16T10:00:34.085+00:00All I can say is what my grandfather told me. He w...All I can say is what my grandfather told me. He was one of those Marine sergeant sorts in WP's org chart. I think he said lieutenants mostly ran around giving dumb orders like "go over that seawall and assault the Nambu on the other side of the field" or "take the dead guy's flamethrower and use it on that pill box across the ravine." And then they got shot. Mostly in the front, I think. And then he (or some other sergeant) called in a tank and the problem was solved until a new Lieutenant blundered in. Sound about right?<br /><br />But yes, I've often wondered about Spice Maroon organization myself.The Composerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14009448596738385017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-28885617207108831352018-11-15T18:22:05.131+00:002018-11-15T18:22:05.131+00:00No one knows what Lieutenants do in the real world...No one knows what Lieutenants do in the real world either.Bulldoglopezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07737797794862661076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-88108297546499396482018-11-15T15:47:10.577+00:002018-11-15T15:47:10.577+00:00i could be wrong, but according to what i've r...i could be wrong, but according to what i've read(and that's nearly as much as i should), the chapters, used to be legions, and were much much larger in personnel(like 30 man tactical, assault, devastator squads - there's your platoon). i imagine it could be theorised that those billits could have come back in style as the ranks of primaris start to swell the chapters. also i'm pretty sure i've seen the rank of Lt. Commander in rogue trader, as well as others that have since gone by the wayside.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10291718099897712614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-43274987314041797292018-11-15T14:44:54.589+00:002018-11-15T14:44:54.589+00:00I could not agree more! As a Marine Infantryman i...I could not agree more! As a Marine Infantryman it has always befuddled me as to the use of Lieutenants in the game. Perhaps it is a two fold thing; 1. The game was designed by (no, I am not insulting R. Priestly) a civilian that only had a modicum of knowledge about Military organizations, 2. As the game has evolved the Squad, unlike IG, is the main maneuver element making squad sergeants the tactical leaders. Just my opinion. russkymchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13100636402313210543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3298356674700006690.post-3988826090641655462018-11-15T10:02:57.357+00:002018-11-15T10:02:57.357+00:00Except not all the models in the image are Lieuten...Except not all the models in the image are Lieutenants, 3 of the 12 mentioned are Captains. I think the models look awesome, but appeal to the modeller rather than the gamer, after all according to Games workshop the majority of their customers buy them to model and paint rather than game. It would be good to see the game have more of a purpose for the Lieutenants as their current role in the game is a bit lacking really.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16645472295817679941noreply@blogger.com